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             INTERVIEW 
              TRANSCRIPT - Jennifer Lash 
               
            
               
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                   Jennifer 
                    Lash is the Executive Director of the Living Oceans Society 
                    in Sointula, British Columbia. 
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              Why is this one of your campaigns? 
            Living Oceans 
              Society is based in Sointula on the central coast of B.C., right 
              near the Broughton Archipelago, which has one of the highest concentrations 
              of farms on the coast. When we first started the organization, we 
              were really focused on marine protection areas, which we still are, 
              but you can't work in this area without being involved in the debate 
              around fish farms. It has polarized our communities, caused so much 
              havoc to the environment that there was no way that a conservation 
              organization could exist here without getting into it. So as a result 
              we decided that if you're going to go in, you go in all the way 
              and it's now one of our major campaigns. 
              
              What are the issues involved? 
            We're worried 
              that salmon farming can do two things. It can be very dangerous 
              for the ocean and it can be very dangerous for human health. We 
              know for a fact that it's very dangerous for the ocean. There's 
              the issue of disease transfer to the wild fish, there's the pollution, 
              the waste that goes into the ocean that contains antibiotics and 
              pesticides. This entire toxic cocktail is going into our ocean. 
              There's the escape of the Atlantic salmon that are now spawning 
              in our rivers. So we know for a fact that salmon farming is a threat 
              to our ocean.  
            Now there are 
              issues around human health that we're also concerned about. It's 
              not quite as definitive at this point in time, but there are real 
              indications that there are problems. They use a chemical additive 
              to color the fish. We don't know the consequences of that yet. The 
              fish are fed antibiotics; we don't know what that means in terms 
              of antibiotic resistance developing in humans that consume the food. 
              There are issues around the omega-3 fatty acids, whether it really 
              is as healthy as everybody thinks it is. So we're concerned both 
              in terms of the health of the ocean and the health of humans. 
              
              What are some of the problems? 
            Within a two-year 
              period they had a new farm put up right next to a seal cove, which 
              means they're going to start shooting the seals. We've had escapes; 
              we've had disease outbreaks. In June of 2001 we had an outbreak 
              of sea lice infestation on our pink salmons and these were the juvenile 
              pink salmon, about a year ago. They were migrating out to sea and 
              in the Broughton they found these little salmon and they were totally 
              infested with sea lice. This is not normal. Sea lice do exist in 
              the wild, they're part of our eco-system, but the state of these 
              fish, so infested, so heavily with these sea lice was not normal 
              at all. It was very similar to outbreaks of sea lice that they've 
              have in Norway, Scotland, and Ireland.  
            They have proven 
              to be attributed to the fish farms. So we were just appalled by 
              this, that our pink salmon would be endangered so much by these 
              sea lice. Unfortunately the federal government, our Department of 
              Fisheries and Oceans, told us there was no problem, that the sea 
              lice were normal, that this was a normal condition, and that the 
              pink salmon would be fine. We've been waiting since that happened 
              for these pink salmon to return. This is the fall that the fish 
              that had survived would have been coming back and they're not coming 
              back. We've seen up to a 99% collapse of the pink salmon in the 
              four streams that feed into the Broughton Archipelago. So that's 
              a classic example of showing how the sea lice have infected the 
              juvenile salmon, which means that those runs basically have been 
              pushed to the brink of extinction.  
            That is probably 
              the best example of how fish farms are affecting not only our eco-system 
              in terms of our wild salmon, the bears that live off of them, and 
              the general health of the ocean, but also how it's affecting our 
              commercial fishery and our economy up here. There are very rough 
              estimates that say that those runs, in harvestable years, when it's 
              healthy, is up to about one million dollar fishery. So we're killing 
              our ocean and we're also killing our local economy and we can't 
              do that anymore. We depend too much on a clean ocean for existence. 
              At Living Oceans Society we work towards maintaining the health 
              of the ocean and therefore supporting healthy communities that depend 
              on it and what we're really worried about is that salmon farms are 
              going to basically turn our healthy oceans into unhealthy oceans. 
              
              What about escaped salmon? 
            What most people 
              don't realize is that most of the salmon that are farmed on the 
              coast of British Columbia are Atlantic salmon, which means they're 
              not indigenous to this area. The salmon farmers assured us that 
              they couldn't escape and they couldn't survive in the wild but they've 
              not only escaped, they've survived and spawned in the wild and we 
              now have Atlantics that have been born on this coast. What we're 
              really worried is they're going to out-compete our wild salmon and 
              we're going to end up losing our wild salmon as a result of it. 
            What do you 
              say to the fishery people who say that there is little to no risk? 
               
            Anybody who 
              tells me they can predict what a fish can do, I don't think they 
              really understand the power of the ocean. The one thing that we 
              know about the ocean is that we don't know very much about it. We 
              don't understand how our eco-systems work, we don't know the history 
              of the fish, we don't understand it, and it's very complex. There 
              is no way that anybody with 100% confidence can say that they understand 
              what Atlantic salmon are going to do on this coast. We don't know 
              and we can't afford to risk it. We can't gamble with the eco-system 
              that we have here, we have to take the steps that are necessary 
              to look after it, and that means not having fish farms on our coast. 
              
              Where should the farms be then? 
            If in fact we 
              have to have fish farms it has to be done in a way where it's not 
              threatening both the ocean and human health. So they have to use 
              technology that eliminates any risk of escapes and any risk of disease 
              transfer. You cannot have any waste being dumped into the ocean. 
              You have to look at issues like where is the food coming from that's 
              being fed to these fish. Right now the food that they're feeding 
              fish is actually made of other fish, from other fisheries in other 
              parts of the world. So in order to feed the salmon that are being 
              farmed here, we're depleting the anchovies and herring and mackerel 
              in other parts of the world. We can't do that. We have to look at 
              our oceans, all of our oceans as connected, and we can't destroy 
              one to try and feed fish in another place. What we have to be doing 
              is, in terms of food, looking at a new food source and if we can't 
              find it we just can't farm them. 
              
              The farmers say wild fisheries are in decline. 
            It's an interesting 
              discussion when people say our fisheries are in decline. They're 
              not as strong as they used to be and there are definitely steps 
              that we need to take to improve our fisheries. That's a very important 
              issue for Living Oceans Society, but we also know that they can 
              be managed sustainably. There are runs like the halibut fishery-very 
              sustainable. The crab fishery is doing well. If we keep monitoring 
              them and working on them we can have healthy wild fisheries. Right 
              now there's over 16,000 people employed in the fishing industry 
              on this coast. So if we have salmon farms, which are going to start 
              to destroy wild stocks and hurt marine eco-systems, we could by 
              that fact be displacing employment. We could be causing economic 
              havoc on this coast, as opposed to being this panacea for the situation 
              we're in right now. We really need to look at it. Is this a job 
              vs. environment argument or is this also a job vs. job argument? 
              
              They say they're providing jobs. 
            The jobs provided 
              through the salmon farming industry are particularly in the processing. 
              But we could also be processing wild fish. Why aren't we looking 
              at the value being done in the coastal communities? Why aren't we 
              looking at taking the halibut, the shrimp, and other things that 
              are being caught right now and trying to do value-added work, so 
              that we're increasing the employment in these coastal communities, 
              and still looking after our ocean? So yes, there are jobs but they're 
              not the right jobs. 
              
              We're not seeing a lot of people out there tending the farms. 
            No. When they 
              first started the farms up they would have people living at the 
              farms but like with every other industry as soon as you start to 
              bring in mechanization and ways of minimizing labor costs, which 
              is what every company always wants to do, there's less and less 
              people actually working at the farms. The jobs that we see up here 
              are in the processing facilities. That's why I say if we're processing 
              farmed fish we could be processing wild fish too. We can look at 
              doing more with the wild fish and getting more money for what we're 
              catching from the ocean. If we manage our wild fisheries properly 
              we're going to have a healthy ocean. 
              
              Some say that farmed salmon has glutted the market and prices are 
              down for all salmon.  
            Farmed salmon 
              is cheaper than wild salmon, but it's cheap for a reason. The consumer 
              pays less but we pay more. Right now up here our community, our 
              ocean, is paying the cost so that the consumer has cheaper salmon, 
              and we can't carry that burden anymore. We should not have to carry 
              that burden. If people want salmon you have to pay the price for 
              it-you can't make us carry that cost any longer.  
            We're in a situation 
              right now where the salmon that is available is farmed and it's 
              dangerous. We have tried endlessly to get the government and decision 
              makers to take some responsibility in taking that danger away from 
              the ocean and it has failed. For 15 years there's been activists 
              working on this coast, in commercial fleet, the First Nation and 
              conservationists trying to work through processes constructively 
              with the government and we've failed miserably. Despite the claims 
              of our government that they've got this great management system, 
              we've still seen the collapse of our pink salmon in our backyard. 
              So it's not working. Ninety percent of the salmon that's exported 
              from British Columbia is consumed in the United States. Most of 
              that is consumed in Seattle, Los Angeles and San Francisco.  
            If those people 
              stopped eating farmed salmon it would make a huge difference to 
              us up here. So there's a real responsibility of the consumer to 
              think about what they're doing when they're buying farmed salmon. 
              A lot of people I imagine would think, "well why do they have 
              to think about our situation up here when they're buying a product?" 
              Consumers also have to think about themselves, what are they putting 
              into their own bodies, and what are they doing in terms of their 
              own future. We'd just like people to think twice when they're at 
              the supermarket. When you're eating this product you're eating chemical 
              additives, there's the potential of antibiotics in there, it's been 
              through pesticides, and that is scary. We're really encouraging 
              people to think twice before they buy it, because it could be a 
              product they don't want. 
              
              The dollar price is not reflecting the true cost? 
            A lot of research 
              has shown that people eat farmed salmon because they believe that 
              it's better for the environment. So we know consumers are trying 
              to make a decision in the best interest of wild salmon and the ocean. 
              Unfortunately those people don't have all the information they need 
              to make an informed decision. Some of the work that we're doing 
              is to get the information to consumers, so that they are able to 
              make an informed decision. This is information about things such 
              as chemical additives, pesticides, disease transfers, and antibiotics. 
               
            We are trying 
              to get that information out so people can think about not only about 
              the consequence of eating farmed salmon on the environment but also 
              the consequence of eating farmed salmon on their bodies. Even if 
              the farms aren't at your front door step, it doesn't mean they do 
              not hurt you. We're all connected; we all like to eat seafood. We 
              all like to reap from the bounty of the ocean, and if we don't keep 
              the ocean healthy we're not going to be able to have the food on 
              our plate. There's a responsibility that we all have towards the 
              health of the ocean. Eating farmed salmon is part of the problem; 
              it's not helping at all. Research has shown that a lot of consumers 
              are buying farmed salmon because they think it's taking pressure 
              off the wild stock. They are trying to make a decision in the best 
              interest of our wild salmon in our ocean, and that's great.  
            In actual fact, 
              what they're doing is putting more pressure on wild salmon and more 
              pressure on the ocean because fish farms are bad. They are not good 
              for the ocean and they're not good for us. Eating farmed salmon 
              is putting more pressure on the ocean and more pressure on our wild 
              salmon. What we really need to do is start making a decision in 
              the best interest of the health of the ocean and the health of us 
              and stay away from farmed salmon. We can eat wild salmon, wild halibut. 
              Talk to your fishmongers. There are things to do, but please don't 
              eat farmed salmon. 
              
              Would you like to leave any other thoughts viewers? 
            We all have 
              to realize that there is no wild Atlantic salmon sold in North America. 
              If you're in a grocery store and there's fresh Atlantic salmon, 
              it's farmed. Don't buy Atlantic salmon. There's also some Pacific 
              species-Coho and Chinook-that are also farmed. What you really need 
              to do is talk to the person at the fish market or at the grocery 
              store and ask them where their fish is from. Don't let "fresh" 
              fool you. If it's from a farm it's farmed, you don't want it.  
              
              What else with regard to the campaign? 
            When we first 
              started talking about doing some sort of public education, a consumer 
              education campaign, we started calling people all along the west 
              coast of North America to see whether there was some interest in 
              being involved and it's amazing how many people are sympathetic 
              to this issue. We've had over 100 organizations offer to carry our 
              information, to share it with their members, through public speaking 
              and through newsletters. What we're seeing is that there are a lot 
              of people out there who are really worried about this and want to 
              get the information out so that we are making informed decisions. 
              That's really profound. 
              
              What kind of organizations are these? 
            The groups that 
              are helping us are a wide range. There are individual chefs who 
              want to take this and speak to it; there are chefs who want to stop 
              serving the product in their restaurants. There are distributors 
              who refuse to sell it. There are natural food stores who are refusing 
              to sell farmed salmon. But there are also organizations that meet 
              once a month to talk about protecting a local beach that also wants 
              to carry it. There are large conservation groups, small conservation 
              groups, and outdoor recreation groups. There is a wide, wide range 
              of people that are really coming together around this issue and 
              trying to make a difference. 
              
              What haven't we covered? 
            There are a 
              lot of campaigns right now around seafood. There are a lot of people 
              out there saying, "buy this seafood, don't buy that seafood." 
              It's getting really confusing for the consumers and that's a real 
              challenge. I think the thing to remember about farmed salmon is 
              this is something that everybody eats all the time. It's a very 
              common mainstream food source in our lives which means that absolutely 
              everybody can play a role in helping change the way we do things 
              by thinking twice before they do buy that farmed salmon. 
              
              The power of the consumer has a large impact on this issue? 
            We all get disillusioned 
              all the time with our political systems and voting and everything. 
              There's one thing that still remains to some degree democratic and 
              that is we can all vote with our dollar. We're just asking people 
              to put their dollars in the right place and look after the ocean. 
              We've been working on this issue for so long and people are always 
              asking us what can they do. They don't want to write letters, because 
              they feel that it's really pointless. The most powerful thing they 
              can do is vote with their dollar and by choosing not to buy farmed 
              salmon. If instead they can look at wild salmon or wild halibut, 
              they're putting their vote in the right place. 
               
              Do you think marine fisheries are an unstable source of food? 
               
            If DFO thinks 
              that fish farming is more stable than the wild fisheries, then they 
              are basically admitting their inability to manage our wild fish. 
              If that's the case then they should get out of the business and 
              bring people in who can do it. Wild fisheries have been managed 
              sustainably for hundreds of years. It can be done. The only time 
              it gets screwed up is when our federal government makes a bad decision. 
              When the sea lice outbreak happened here in May and June of 2001, 
              automatically we called the federal government and asked them to 
              get some scientists up here to research it right away. It took them 
              over a month to come up here. By then many of the salmon had migrated 
              already.  
            They also brought 
              a huge troll vessel up here and went into an area that's full of 
              little islands and inlets. It was inappropriate equipment, and so 
              they ended up not testing where there was an actual infestation. 
              Unfortunately our government is saying that they've done research, 
              but they didn't go to the area where there was the infestation of 
              sea lice. They didn't catch enough samples to do a valid study, 
              and yet they somehow concluded that there was no outbreak. Meanwhile 
              a person living in that area caught over 800 samples that were infested 
              and was able to do a statistical study to show that there was in 
              fact an infestation. 
            
            
            
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