|  
             INTERVIEW 
              TRANSCRIPT - Elliot Entis 
               
            
               
                   
                  Elliot Entis is the CEO of Aqua Bounty 
                  Technologies in Massachusettes.  
                     | 
               
             
              
              What is A/F Protein? 
            A/F is the original 
              company. It stands for Anti-Freeze. It's the anti-freeze protein 
              gene that we use. The company really started with anti-freeze proteins 
              as a product by themselves, which come from fish. 
               
              
              Who's pioneering Aqua Bounty or A/F Protein? 
            Now, it's Aqua 
              Bounty. The two companies split. There's an AF company now that 
              does protein products and there is an Aqua Bounty Farms. Scientists 
              actually work in common. 
               
              
              What is the primary protein modification that A/F Protein has pioneered 
              in salmon? 
             It's a relatively 
              simple genetic alteration. What we've done is taken one portion 
              from one gene from another edible fish. In this case a portion of 
              a gene is normally used to produce a product called anti-freeze 
              proteins in fish. We've matched that up with a salmon's growth hormone 
              gene, and we've gotten salmon to produce their own growth hormone, 
              essentially, under the control of this gene promoter from another 
              fish. 
            The question 
              is why would we bother, salmon already produce plenty of growth 
              hormone on their own. The twist here is that we've gotten salmon 
              to produce growth hormone at a different time of the year than would 
              otherwise be the case, and in a different organ of the body. Essentially, 
              all we've done is moved the location of production of growth hormone 
              from the pituitary to include now the liver as well and to have 
              it produced all year round. Other than that the salmon is identical 
              in all respects, and we can honestly say that the salmon only produce 
              as a product or proteins or hormones that are already being produced 
              by every other Atlantic salmon. 
            In that sense, 
              it's less of a total change than it is more like tuning up your 
              car. We haven't changed the engine but we've gotten it to produce 
              more mile per gallon. In this case, instead of getting the equivalent 
              of 10 miles to the gallon we now get 40 miles to the gallon. Because 
              we already know and we've measured it that we actually don't have 
              any more growth hormones circulating through the salmon's body than 
              was already there before. It's just being used much more efficiently 
              than previous.  
             
              
              In wild salmon, growth shuts down during the winter but with your 
              salmon, growth continues throughout the year? 
              
            Yes, that's 
              an interesting thing. Wild fish are very finely tuned to survive 
              otherwise they wouldn't be here. And salmon as well as a lot of 
              other fish in the North Atlantic simply stop growing in the when 
              food is scarce and the need is there to preserve themselves against 
              the cold water. If a fish such as a salmon were trying to grow in 
              the wintertime then it would be using up more energy than it could 
              essentially get from it's environment. So, it shuts down. 
            Now in our case, 
              what we've done is manage to produce I guess what would be called 
              the equivalent of cows because they now need to be kept in, fed, 
              warmed, otherwise they wouldn't survive. If these fish were to escape 
              into the wild, what I believe that we'd see is a very low rate of 
              survival, based on the fact that they do continue to grow year round, 
              which is not a good survival factor if you're a salmon. 
              
              Could you comment again about how your salmon's year round growth 
              makes them less fit for survival? 
            In the wild, 
              salmon normally do not grow in the wintertime. It's a survival factor 
              not to produce hormones and not to continue to grow when the water's 
              particularly cold as it is in the wintertime. Our salmon by contrast 
              actually do grow year round as we produce or reproduce a growth 
              hormone on a continual basis. That's not a very good survival factor. 
              In fact, nature has clearly chosen against fish that attempt to 
              grow in the North Atlantic in the wintertime. Our fish are counter 
              to that survival. What that really means is that if these fish do 
              manage to escape, their capacity for survival is going to be much 
              lower than the other fish that are in the wild. They're not good 
              wild fish. 
              
              Is this true of the Pacific Ocean as well? 
            There is some 
              good information about that. The information that we're aware of 
              which has been collected over the years by a number of research 
              organizations, including National Marine Fishery Services point 
              out that Atlantic salmon in general do not survive in the West Coast. 
              In fact from the 1930's to the 1960's, there was a program in which 
              literally millions upon millions of Atlantic salmon were released 
              into the Pacific Ocean in an attempt to bolster that stock. 
            The end result 
              was that they didn't survive. In fact there was virtually no Atlantic 
              salmon whatsoever in the wild in the Pacific, despite countless 
              attempts to have them reproduce. So what happens if you have a genetically 
              modified, as we call it an advanced hybrid salmon, that has a lower 
              survival factor than Atlantic to begin with? What are the odds that 
              they would survive in the Pacific and I'd have to say that the odds 
              don't favor it very well at all. 
             
              
              Is faster growth the subject matter of this interview in terms of 
              your salmon? 
            
            We've now done 
              a number of studies and had a number of studies done on our behalf 
              by research organizations that will ultimately be reporting to the 
              Food and Drug Administration. And we're aware now of the fact that 
              our salmon do not differ from other Atlantic salmon in any material 
              aspect that we can determine. Hormone balance, nutritional value, 
              taste and color - they are all part of salmon. A salmon is a salmon 
              is a salmon in this case and the fact that they grow a little bit 
              quicker is an advantage, but we don't sacrifice other attributes 
              for that advantage. 
              
              What's the advantage of faster growth? 
            There are tremendous 
              advantages to having a faster growing fish if you're in the farming 
              business. These advantages are spread across the board. It's an 
              advantage for the producer, there's an advantage for the consumer 
              and what's not focused on enough is that there are advantages for 
              the environment. For the producer, we basically have a situation 
              now where you can produce twice as many fish in the same time period 
              because we've cut the harvest time in half. So that means a farmer 
              with enough acreage or water acreage in this case to produce one 
              thousand pounds of fish in a cycle, can now produce two thousand 
              pounds and I think the economics are fairly clear from that. 
            It's going to 
              be much more inexpensive to produce the fish and there's a higher 
              profit margin, and interestingly enough there's also what we find 
              a better food conversion ratio. What that means is that the fish 
              actually eat less to put on more weight. So all of these are economic 
              advantages. In a capitalist society as we have of course, some of 
              those advantages will get translated down to the consumer in the 
              form of lower prices. As demand increases, normally the price would 
              go up. But in this case the ability to harvest much more fish at 
              a lower cost per pound is going to allow more consumers around the 
              world to eat these fish. For the environment, the advantages are 
              perhaps even greater than those just for the consumer and for the 
              producer. 
            Right now, salmon 
              farming is increasing at somewhere between 10 and 12 percent per 
              year compounded annually and it's projected to continue at some 
              kind of rate that is in that ballpark for the next 20 or 30 years. 
              What that means is in order to produce these fish in order to meet 
              people's protein needs, we're either going to have to use up more 
              coastal land, more space, create more effluent (?) than we have 
              before. Or, we'd have to learn how to be more productive. And being 
              more productive is what we think will give an advantage. Number 
              one, it means that you can do two things. Either produce more fish 
              on the same amount of coastal land that you have today, or as the 
              economics are more favorable change a lot of salmon farming into 
              inland facilities, which is simply going to eliminate many of the 
              problems we see with the environment. 
            Even while we 
              have outdoor salmon farming in the coastal areas, the fact that 
              these fish eat less to put on more weight means that they are more 
              sustainable. And that's tremendous goal that all of us have. Sustainability 
              is a key issue on the planet as the population continues to grow. 
              The other advantage is that were just asking to grow sterile, all 
              female stocks. What this does is eliminate the problem, which is 
              constantly being talked about by environmentalists today of gene 
              introgression. Or what happens when a fertile salmon escapes into 
              the wild and mates with the wild stocks-does it change the genetic 
              balance out there? Whether or not you think that's an issue, if 
              you have a sterile fish escaping, you know that has to be much more 
              favorable than if you have all fertile fish.  
              
              How does a fish grow larger without eating as much? 
            Yes, I think 
              that's a large part of it. Salmon farmers have always noted the 
              fact that the fastest growing fish have a tendency to eat less and 
              are the most efficient food converters. Presumably, even though 
              their metabolisms are faster, a certain percentage of food that 
              you take in is just used to support your bodily functions. If your 
              bodily functions are only occurring over 18 months as opposed to 
              36 months there's that much food you didn't have to eat to keep 
              your body going for the extra year and a half. You're going to wind 
              up with a better food conversion ratio. 
              
              Where is the industry, in terms of moving out of ocean net cages 
              to land-based containment? 
               
            I've been convinced 
              for years that the long-term industry has to move towards land-based 
              farming. I think that's a necessity not just because of the environmental 
              reasons although that's going to be a critical component. But, also 
              for the security of those people who are growing salmon. Today you 
              might find that its much more inexpensive to grow salmon on coastal 
              land in any given year, but the next year, you might loose all of 
              those fish to escape or to disease or an uncontrolled change in 
              temperature of the seawater. 
            I think that 
              in the long run any responsible and mature industry is going to 
              want to be able know how much it's going to be able to harvest at 
              the end of the day. What's the predictive factor? And is it worth 
              paying several cents a pound more to have that predicative factor 
              as opposed to not knowing whether or not you'll have a crop at all. 
              In the long run, the industry has to move in that direction and 
              for environmental reasons, because as we know there are more and 
              more strictures on where you can place your net pens. There's more 
              public awareness of some of the issues and problems caused by salmon 
              farming.  
            I see our technology 
              as a platform technology. It lowers the cost enough so that it provides 
              an incentive and a platform to enable salmon farmers to make that 
              switch a little bit more quickly towards land-based farming. Will 
              our technology meet the rational and reason for people to start 
              using land based farming? No, but I do think it allows them to make 
              that choice more easily.  
              
              When do you guys begin to make a profit -- do 
              you need to wait for land-based farming? 
            No, I think 
              that our product will start to be used both in ocean net pens as 
              well as in land-based facilities. As I've said before, I believe 
              that we offer a safer alternative to the present methods of producing 
              salmon in ocean net pens, due to the fact that these will be sterile 
              fish and due to the fact that they have survival values and they 
              eat less. There are advantages even in the short run. We will start 
              to commercialize this product where we can, where it's legally permissible, 
              where we've passed all of the regulatory hurdles. In the interim, 
              also work toward more of the land based facilities. It's a combination. 
              
              What are the concerns surrounding the possible escapes of GM fish? 
            e of the great 
              concerns today among environmentalists regarding salmon farming 
              is what happens to the wild stock when salmon escape? They do escape. 
              Each year there are several hundred thousand fish that go from net 
              pens back into the wild. People have taken a look at this and ask 
              the question, "Is this helping to diminish the wild stock?" 
              On the theory that domesticated salmon are bred for domestic purposes 
              and aren't as fit to survive in the wild. Therefore, when they do 
              escape, and they do create offspring with the wild stocks, they 
              will be genetically less fit to survive. That's been an ongoing 
              question, and so what we've done is sort of taken the bull by the 
              horns, or maybe the fish by the fins if you will... and we've said 
              look - let's only have all sterile genetically modified fish. 
              
              Why the triploid process? 
            We've taken 
              a position that we want the fish that we raise, or will be raised, 
              that are advanced hybrids to be sterile. We think this resolves 
              a problem in the industry. Where fish that escape have a tendency 
              to mate with the wild stocks and it's controversial but perhaps 
              they help to diminish those wild stocks. Today there's a well-known 
              process called 'triploiding' in which fish eggs can be made sterile 
              and the resulting fish never sexually mature. Salmon farmers do 
              not use it. The reason salmon farmers don't, primarily, is that 
              it slows down the growth rate. As a result, there's an economic 
              disincentive to use this technology despite the fact many organizations, 
              like the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organization, have attempted 
              to get salmon farmers to use it for many years. 
            Now, we come 
              along and we say, look, we have a fish that grows significantly 
              faster, in fact double the rate at which salmon apparently grow. 
              Even though our salmon, when they are made sterile, may grow slightly 
              more slowly as we do know. They have made up so much of the difference 
              in growth rate that you can now afford to have an all-sterile population 
              out there and not sacrifice the economics. So there's a benefit 
              here to the farmer who will face less opposition who will still 
              have a fast growth rate and certainly to the environment in which 
              if salmon do escape they will in fact be sterile. 
              
              Some scientists think there cannot be 100% sterility. Can you address 
              that issue? 
            There have been 
              a number of studies done about triploiding and it's effectiveness. 
              It's been done in grass carp, in trout as well as in salmon. If 
              done properly, we know for a fact that it can be 100 percent. We've 
              experimented with many different techniques to induce the sterility. 
              Triploiding can in fact be 100 percent effective. The question isn't 
              however, whether it will always be 100 percent effective. But the 
              question is with proper quality assurance and quality control can 
              we maintain it at such a level that it will be as close as humanly 
              possible to 100 percent. 
            We do believe 
              that that's going to be the case. In fact, in our application for 
              approval in the United States and as well as in other countries, 
              we will be putting in quality control quality assurance mechanisms, 
              so that testing will be done on a significant sample from each egg 
              batch that's let go. So we will always know what the essential rate 
              of sterility is. Now in our hands to date, we have done a number 
              of experiments in which we've optimized the process, and I have 
              to tell you that the results have been 100 percent successful. Moreover, 
              there's a history of work that's been done in Canada on this very 
              problem and the results over many years and many thousands of experiments 
              in the hands of researchers whose controls we are using currently, 
              has been that they've been 100 percent successful as well-literally 
              to many thousands of fish. 
            We believe that 
              it can be done. There's another broader question here. The broader 
              question is what happens if one individual salmon for example out 
              of 100,000 does escape and is in fact fertile. We have to take a 
              risk benefit approach to this. Today we know if that if 100,000 
              fish escape we know that they will all be fertile. If 100,000 advanced 
              hybrids escape aqua advantage fish and the possibilities exists 
              that one or two might be fertile, which is better? Which has the 
              risk benefit? Where do we tip the balance? Now we know from historical 
              evidence taking a look at what's happened to salmon escaping the 
              past, that for every 100,000 fish that escape roughly 6 and only 
              6 ultimately come back to be able to make successfully great offspring. 
            Now if you have 
              a 99% success rate with tripoiding, to have one fish come back and 
              be successful at mating will require the escape of millions of fish. 
              So, we've lowered the probability of fish coming back having a genetic 
              introgression or genetic mating with wild stocks and helping decrease 
              those wild stocks. If you add to that factor the fact that our fish 
              are less likely to survive in the wild due to that one change we've 
              made in them, then I think that we've taken this to the point of 
              a very highly unlikely scenario. So measuring, we have benefits. 
              We have more fish in less space at lower cost to human beings, providing 
              more food for people. 
            We have a better 
              food conversion ratio, which means that the fish are more sustainable. 
              We'll have less impact more directly on the environment. Those are 
              the benefits. We have a risk. There's a very slight risk that a 
              very small number of fish could escape and could be fertile, and 
              could have a localized impact. Geneticists have studied this problem 
              about what impact genetically modified products have had on the 
              environment. To date, we have seen that there's been virtually no 
              impact in any area of the world for any of the genetically modified 
              crops and other products that are in use today. 
            If you think 
              about it, what we are attempting to do here is to create a benefit 
              for people that is a faster growing fish. This is not particularly 
              a benefit for the fish in terms of its survivability in the wild. 
              In fact, if you think about it some more, the fact that we can confer 
              a characteristic on a fish which is random in terms of the fish's 
              survival, what are the odds that that will help it survive? I think 
              the odds are very poor because we're not doing it to allow it to 
              survive in a niche which nature has created for it for eons and 
              for which it knows how to survive. All of the historical evidence 
              and all the studies show the opposite to be the case. Any change 
              produced by man in a beast or in a fruit, or in a vegetable, has 
              a tendency not to improve its survivability in the wild, but to 
              make it less fit and then needs to be cultured. And that we believe 
              is the case with our salmon as well. 
              
              What is your view of the "Trojan Gene Scenario?" 
            Dr. Bill More 
              has produced a hypothesis that says that if an advanced hybrid fish 
              has better success at mating or whose progeny are less likely to 
              survive, it will create an effect somewhat like a death spiral in 
              an airplane over a number of generations and that the total number 
              of fish in the wild will decrease ultimately linked to possibly 
              even extinction. The hypothesis is based largely on that increased 
              attractiveness of the male fish to the female fish so that you have 
              an increase in mating success, over the normal wild population. 
            That in turn 
              is based upon larger size because size is a predominant attribute 
              that the female looks at, perhaps in other species as well. In this 
              case however, we have 12 years of history, 6 generations of salmon, 
              and many, many thousands of fish, to be able to answer the question, 
              do our fish grow larger, are they bigger at sexual maturity? The 
              answer is unequivocally, no. In our hands, and in everything that 
              we've done the indication is that at sexual maturity, our fish are 
              no larger than other salmon that are currently being raised. So 
              we have no reason to believe that there's any particular attribute, 
              which would allow these fish to have a more attractive mating pattern. 
            If you take 
              a look at Bill's work, you also see that a number of other factors 
              have come into play, and his theories have become much more sophisticated 
              over time. And the curves that Bill draws, in terms of the likelihood 
              of the Trojan Gene effect occurring, indicate that there are a number 
              of factors all of which have to come together in order for the Trojan 
              Gene theory to work. As you factor more and more independent variables 
              into the equation and as our fish don't seem to meet those, the 
              indications are that the Trojan Gene hypothesis has very little, 
              in fact, to do with our fish.  
              
              Are your fish larger at sexual maturity, and does the onset of sexual 
              maturity come sooner with your fish? 
            No, at the onset 
              of sexual maturity our fish are not larger. Our fish have growth 
              patterns in which they grow very, very rapidly for the first year. 
              In fact they grow five, six, seven, even eight times faster than 
              other salmon. However that growth rate increase starts to slow down 
              over time so that ultimately when they do reach sexual maturity 
              they haven't gotten any larger. That early spurt is what we're relying 
              on mostly for the advantage. 
            Do they reach 
              sexual maturity earlier than other fish? It's very possible that 
              they will on average become sexually mature in two years instead 
              of three years. But it's a little difficult to tell only because 
              salmon normally become sexually mature at two year, three year, 
              or even four or five-year intervals depending upon the sub-strain 
              of fish. So that's a little bit confusing. All I can tell you is 
              that at sexual maturity, our fish are somewhere in the 4 to 5 kilo 
              range which is an optimal market size, and they don't seem to be 
              a lot larger than that. If your fish reach sexual maturity early, 
              then we're back to the chance that a fertile modified fish would 
              have a better chance of reproducing before predation.  
            That actually 
              overlooks a simple fact. Salmon are unlike a lot of fish species. 
              They actually reproduce and reach sexual maturity at widely variable 
              ages. In fact, taking a look at the biology of salmon what you find 
              is that there are a lot of what they call "sneakers" or 
              fish that are precocious and sexually mature literally at several 
              months. A year old, 12 months, 14, 16 months. These fish, of course, 
              you'd think would have a greater chance of successful mating than 
              other fish. It's not a simple cut and dried formula. We find that 
              salmon sexually mature at 12 months and 14 months are constantly 
              out in the ocean as well as salmon that don't mature until 5 years. 
              So I don't think that that's going to wind up being a factor. I 
              think that our fish in general tend to mature at that 2 and 3 year 
              old level which is not significantly different from a lot of fish 
              out there. 
              
              What percentage of the breeding population do the "sneaker" 
              males represent? 
            I don't know. 
              That varies by area. In Newfoundland, where we have a lot of our 
              original genetic stock for some of our advanced hybrid work, there's 
              a very high percentage of sneakers, because there is a genetic advantage 
              when you're living in Newfoundland to maturing very quickly, very 
              early, and reproducing. I suspect that as you go further south that 
              there's less of the percentage of the population that does that. 
              
              Triploiding may not be 100%. 
            We do not claim 
              a 100% risk free environment in anything we as human beings do. 
              This is not going to be the first 100% risk free project technology 
              or application of human mentality to our surroundings. If you want 
              to a risk free environment, I suggest not getting out of bed. 
              
              What kinds 
              of safeguards are you advocating? 
            We believe it's 
              going to be our responsibility to test all of the eggs before they 
              leave our plant. Whatever it is that we wind up selling and passing 
              along to the grower farmers. In that regard, we will institute quality 
              control and quality assurance to be as close to 100% successful 
              in sterility as is humanly possible. However, if one asks for absolute 
              100% assurance, meaning testing every last animal, we run into a 
              commercially impractical difficulty. 
            When you're 
              talking about millions upon millions of fish and eggs, which is 
              what the case is today, then to screen every last one of them is 
              both something that's not done in any other industry nor is it possible 
              to do in this context. It would cost too much and make it prohibitive. 
              We really have to decide ourselves. Are we in a risk benefit position 
              here and are we weighing risks versus benefits and then coming to 
              a conclusion? Or, are we going to be using a different principle? 
              For instance, a principle that says that there are no risks that 
              are tolerable. Remember, if we use the 'no risks are tolerable' 
              assumption, then for any further progress we have to question to 
              ourselves. What are the risks of doing nothing? Because in fact, 
              we will in fact wind up doing nothing. 
              
              Does the rapid 
              growth rate predispose genetically modified salmon to more predation? 
            There have been 
              several studies done, not just by us, which indicate the low survival 
              value of these fish in the wild. One of the studies which was most 
              interesting was to take a group of young genetically modified or 
              advanced hybrid fish and put them in front of a predator, and next 
              to them put a control group separated by a screen of standard Atlantic 
              salmon. Then in the background for each place a predator. What we 
              found was that the control group of salmon all fled, as is normal 
              for them to do, and our fish kept on eating. Presumably at that 
              young tender age when they are growing so rapidly they have such 
              a high caloric intake need that they simply override their fear 
              of predation. And the result of it is that they were decimated. 
              So there's another indication that our fish are simply not good 
              survivors. They may be fast growers, but they are not real smart. 
              
              Given all 
              the hurdles, when do you think your product will start being farmed? 
            'When are we 
              able to commercialize these fish' is really a question for the regulators 
              as much as it is for us. We've submitted data to the Food and Drug 
              Administration; we're submitting more, the process will be ongoing 
              throughout the rest of this year. We are hopeful that we will be 
              able to start commercializing the product sometime next year. However 
              commercialization does not mean it will reach anybody's dinner table 
              necessarily in the next year or two, because salmon do still take 
              a couple of years to grow. So if our plans are realized, sometime 
              in 2004, we'll start to distribute eggs to a select number of approved 
              locations. They will then begin to grow those fish and so that sometime 
              around the end of 2005 to the end of 2006, a few of these fish will 
              perhaps start to make their appearance in super markets and other 
              locations. 
              
              Could you 
              tell me a little more about the approved locations? 
            I think that 
              originally, they will be mostly net cage operations because that's 
              where the industry is. So, I don't think there will be any choice. 
              I suspect that it's more likely to be on the East Coast than clearly 
              on the West Coast. It might be other countries as well as in Canada 
              and the United States. We'll just have to wait and see. We'll have 
              federal approval at that point, and then we'll have just to find 
              out what conditions will have to be met by the local farm in order 
              for them to be certified to grow the fish.  
              
              What are the 
              hurdles with the FDA? 
            The Food and 
              Drug Administration have a long history of regulating what they 
              call animal drugs. Our fish are being regulated as if they were 
              'an animal drug'. What that really means is that we have to meet 
              the gold standard. We have to meet the hardest, highest hurdle that 
              we have ever developed for approval of a particular product. In 
              our case, it means that we have to prove that these fish are safe 
              for human food use, which means we have to know about their nutritional 
              value about the hormonal balances, about the proteins that are produced, 
              pretty much everything. It also means we have to know everything 
              on the molecular level as well. So, we can understand where the 
              gene has been placed, what that gene looks like, precisely what 
              that gene has produced. We also then have to know how it will impact 
              with the environment.  
            This is the 
              big three. What they call manufacturing, environment, and human 
              food safety. The number of studies that go into this are quite a 
              few and quite a lot of money as well. These hurdles are such that 
              we know more about our salmon than anybody, I'd say, knows about 
              any other salmon on the planet at this time. It's a little bit like, 
              if you remember, the old hot dog ads for the Kosher hot dog. We 
              answer to a higher standard, and in this case that's really what 
              we're doing. We're answering to a higher standard than just the 
              typical new food standard. By the time this product gets into the 
              hands of consumers, I suspect we'll be able to say, this is about 
              the safest salmon that's being raised today. 
              
              Where is the 
              gene placed? 
            It just takes 
              up a small space in the salmon's DNA. We introduced the gene by 
              injecting it into the egg originally, then that gene will locate 
              itself in the appropriate location by natural process. We don't 
              have any direct control over that. In fact, when we started this 
              well over a decade ago, 15 years ago, the original injection is 
              made and then a very, very small percentage of the fish that are 
              injected, the eggs that are injected are actually able to successfully 
              reproduce and show the trait. It's literally less than 1/2 of 1 
              per cent. But then once you take those fish where the gene is appropriately 
              located, and you grow those up, and have them reproduce, then it's 
              pretty normal inheritance patterns. It's just like anybody else 
              growing any other livestock product. You just watch them, you breed 
              them normally, and you pick out the best ones, and you continue 
              to breed those and you create a brood stock. All of that's back 
              to high school biology. 
              
              What about 
              consumer acceptance? Do you see that as a big obstacle? 
            I take a look 
              around at what's been going on with advanced hybrids, genetically 
              modifications in the past decade, and certainly I can say in North 
              America this has not been an obstacle. The fact that people are 
              using new biological techniques to help develop food products has 
              not been in disfavor among consumers. I don't see consumers rushing 
              out of the supermarkets and boycotting those products. I see people 
              buying. I see people accepting the fact that our regulatory system 
              is very good. It insures that we only have safe products enter the 
              market place.  
            Our record, 
              basically as a country, has been spotless. We don't have Mad Cow 
              disease. We don't have some of the problems they've had in other 
              jurisdictions where the regulatory system may not be as effective. 
              I find it kind of contradictory that where the regulatory system 
              has been less effective as proven by the historical record in Europe, 
              for example, they have more problems with genetically modified food. 
              We, however, who have a very complete regulatory system, are able 
              to approved and use these products absolutely no problem. I don't 
              think the consumer acceptance is the issue. 
            I do think, 
              however, that the perception of what consumer acceptance will be 
              like is an issue. That is, those people who are responsible for 
              growing products, for distributing products, for selling them, financial 
              markets, politicians even. Those are the people who are more nervous 
              frequently about what the consumer will do than the consumer himself 
              or herself. That's where the trust is greatest. But trusting the 
              consumer to know and understand the product has never been as great 
              as it should be, and that's what I have to worry about. 
              
              You're in 
              favor of labeling GM on food products and on your product. Could 
              you elaborate? 
            Our company 
              has had a consistent standard and approach to the issue of labeling 
              and that is we're totally in favor of it. We are totally in favor 
              of a voluntary labeling system and we intend to have our products 
              labeled. I don't see any negative from labeling. I believe that 
              consumers if they don't want to be able to distinguish between an 
              advanced hybrid fish and a non-advanced hybrid fish should have 
              the choice. I trust the consumer to do what's in his or her own 
              interest. Do I think there is a scientific rationale for this? Not 
              particularly. There is a rational based on what the consumer would 
              like to see. 
             I see no evidence 
              to indicate that just because a product is labeled, people will 
              shun it. In fact, even in Great Britain, a number of years ago, 
              when the first genetically modified tomato paste was introduced 
              in the supermarkets, they outsold the non-genetically modified tomato 
              paste by a considerable margin, despite the fact that they were 
              higher priced, and they were labeled. We're not talking about a 
              situation where consumers will necessarily be afraid, and I'd rather 
              be transparent. I believe that that's essential for our industry 
              to succeed. 
              
              How transparent 
              is the FDA approval process? 
            The FDA approval 
              process is not totally transparent. We are allowed to submit our 
              documents in private to the FDA without having them publicly revealed. 
              At some point, the FDA itself will reveal a portion of those documents 
              We have taken the position that once our documents, once the data 
              from our studies has been assimilated by the Food and Drug Administration, 
              we ourselves will reveal those studies. We're in favor of revealing 
              them. We've been asked a number of times, why don't you give them 
              to us at the same time you submit them to the Food and Drug Administration? 
            My answer to 
              that is, well I would like to see every draft of every private paper 
              that a reporter would like to make or a researcher in any other 
              field would like to make before it gets approved and in final form. 
              We reserve the same right to have our material understood and approved, 
              before we'll reveal it, as any one else would do with an early draft. 
              Because until it's approved that's all it is, it's a draft. The 
              FDA might well come back to us and say, we want you to increase 
              your sample size; we want you to go back and study it again, at 
              which point we would do so. Then, we would reveal the data. 
              
              What about 
              the term Frankenfish?  
            I hate to say 
              that the issue of Frankenfish has haunted us over the years. It 
              has been a continually reoccurring event, to the point where a number 
              of years ago, we decided to have it copyrighted. As long as people 
              were going to use that ill chosen phrase, we thought we might as 
              well have some control over it. That didn't occur, of course. I 
              just think it shows a paucity of imagination on the part of the 
              media to continually refer to this as some kind of an item of derision 
              or refer to it as a fictional event in which we are basically trying 
              to scare people.  
            We all know 
              that frightening headlines sell papers and sell news stories to 
              the TV. My reaction to the media at this point is, guys get over 
              it. Use a different phrase at least if you're going to try and scare 
              people, let's do something new. About the conversation with Crew 
              about Ken Wise, LA Times, well, I'll never talk to him again. It's 
              not that I have a shit list of reporters. I will avoid reporters 
              who I feel don't get the story. I actually care less about whether 
              they are positive or negative and more about do they get the facts 
              right and do they do it fairly. 
              
              We've been 
              talking with experts about aquaculture and it's role in sustainability. 
              Could biotechnology, for example, create fish that need less fishmeal? 
            That's an accurate 
              assessment of where this industry is headed and what we are trying 
              to do. Everyone is concerned with the issue of sustainability, and 
              that does mean that we cannot continue to feed predator fish that 
              we grow with other fish at least not in the same proportion that's 
              occurring presently. Standard practice among fish farmers has in 
              fact led to a diminution of the use of fish to feed fish. That has 
              to take a quantum leap forward over time. A lot of the research 
              that is going on today is directed towards substituting plants and 
              modified plants for fishmeal in fish. We're taking a look at some 
              of those issues as well and hopefully somebody if not us then somebody 
              else will be successful at it. I think it's inevitable. Today when 
              you take a look at what we can do with plants, you realize that 
              the opportunity is in fact there to take many of the proteins that 
              are found in fish and transfer them into for example the seeds of 
              plants and have them grown specifically as fish feed alternatives. 
               
                
              Again, could 
              you address the role of biotechnology in coming to the rescue? 
            Biotech is looking 
              very hard now at how to substitute plants for fish feed that currently 
              comes from the oceans in the form of fish. We have the ability to 
              modify plants so that they can contain some of the essential nutrients 
              that are only found in fish. We can reproduce them in seeds. So 
              a lot of experimentation now is devoted towards the issue of sustainability. 
              How to make these fish, or allow these fish to be grown in ever 
              increasing numbers and at the same time not to deplete the oceans 
              of the lower fish forms that are used to create the higher levels. 
              
              Given the 
              situation with fish stocks world wide, how do you see the development 
              of aquaculture and genetically modified fish? 
            The question 
              today is not whether aquaculture is a necessity or will it survive. 
              It is a necessity; it will survive. It will grow. The question is 
              how do we shape it, so that it's most efficient and most effective 
              at feeding people while leaving the smallest footprint both in the 
              land and ultimately, of course, in the water. We believe you have 
              two choices: we as a species have two choices. To continue to grow 
              more fish using an unending amount of resources, or to be more productive. 
              Being more productive is what biotechnology is all about. 
              
              Can you say 
              a few words about aquaculture? 
            Fish are the 
              most efficient form of animal protein to grow. Far more so than 
              anything we eat from the land. So as long as we're going to be eating 
              protein from meat I suspect we will shift ever more towards fish 
              as that resource. That means we have to make the transition finally 
              from hunting and gathering which we did on land 10, 000 years ago 
              to farming, which is what we are doing now. This is a brand new 
              industry. Not all problems get solved in the first decade or two. 
              What's amazing to me is how many problems we're well on the way 
              to solving and how aware we are of the issues as we reshape this 
              industry for the future. Aquaculture will be a tremendous benefit 
              to all of us, and we've really no choice as long as we're going 
              to want to eat fish. We should use that farmed resource as opposed 
              to continually depleting the seas. 
            
            
             
                
              
             |